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[Issue] Risk/reward of empire

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Kahega Amielden 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 05:41:00 - [1] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 12/08/2008 05:41:44 Quote: If you want to make Isk buying more of a problem, reduce CCPs subscriptions, reduce CCPs profits, and make Eve less appealing to new players. Sigh. 1) ISK buying is only a problem when you have impatient ****s who think they deserve to always fly faction-fit pwnships and think they should be disposable. The GMs can handle this quite nicely. 2) For every subscription they lose to a /ragequitter, 3 more will come because the game because there are actually goals now. 3) see #2 4) IF YOU'RE RUNNING LEVEL 4 MISSIONS YOU ARE NOT A NEW PLAYER. NO ONE HERE has suggested nerfing level 2 or 1 missions.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 05:47:00 - [2] Quote: Agree with the first part, however I know of people who did level 5's on tranquility (myself included) - they aren't worth the effort, as they paid quite badly last I did them. Lowsec missions were boosted quite a bit. Last I read they paid some 60K LP/mission.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 05:54:00 - [3] Loot was boosted to, so level 5 missions are quite nice now. However, that doesn't change the fact that you can run level 4s solo and do so semi AFK without having to worry about any real risk.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.14 18:48:00 - [4] Originally by: Kristan Knife Figures a goonie would bring this up one more...Mission runners support Eve-Online. With out them, you would be forced to go back to WoW to gank newbies. Why Cant you let people play the way they want to? Why force them to play with you? Empire players are playing THEIR game not yours. Want to see Eve-Online die....this is the way.. Le sigh. 1) Hisec ISK printing aka level 4 misisons have not always existed in this form, so no, they aren't necessary. 2) They can't play the way they want to because in EVE, what one person does affects others. In this case, the availability of level 4 missions makes PVP in lowsec/0.0 useless because you can't inflict any financial losses on your opponent. Any losses can be made up by missioning in hisec, and there's nothing to fight over because you can get the same thing missioning in hisec.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.14 22:24:00 - [5] It has nothing to do with you being in lowsec or hisec, it has everything to do with rewards in hisec vs rewards in lowsec. And people need to stop making this into a war of PVErs vs PVPers. It's not about that, it's about risk vs reward and making conflict in lowsec/0.0 meaningful.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.14 23:44:00 - [6] 1) It's not about making 00 more profitable, but hisec LESS profitable. Also, being in 0.0. Besides, 0.0 is NOT more profitable when you factor in the time/effort needed to defend that space. 2) EVE is a game where when you do something, it always affects someone else. Being able to print ISK in hisec dumbs down PVP in EVE because you CANNOT inflict meaningful financial losses on your opponent because no matter how much space they lose, they can ALWAYS make a LOT of ISK in a short time by farming ISK in hisec. 3) erm...it is. This does not mean you'll be successful just ignoring everyone else, it IS an MMO, but it doesn't mean you need to join a corp. Hell, even with the changes it wouldn't mean you need to join a corp, it would just make it easier to survive as it should be.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.15 01:01:00 - [7] Quote: Looked to me like the proposal was to move all L4 agents to 0.0. That would make them the new static plexes, more or less, though admittedly not as rich. It does in fact provide another way to farm, and get rich, in 0.0. Ahh, that. I actually agree with that, I was talking more on the last page about just nerfing hisec kill missions. Quote: Again, it's a freaking game. So, when you vanquish your 0.0 rival you want for there to be nowhere for them to go? You'd like them to spend the next three years trying to claw their way back up with the L2 agents and Veldspar "pop-rocks" that would be left in empire? We ought to just go straight to "perma death", no? They could probably train a whole new character up in the time it would take them to be ready to attempt to take 0.0 space again. The only alternative that they'd have would be to join up with someone bigger. Then that fish gets swallowed up by a bigger one, and so on, till you have two entities in this game. In case you haven't noticed, the concentration of power is breaking the game already. Servers can't handle it. You sure that's a process you want to accelerate? Nowhere for them to go? When they lose, they're already pushed out of 0.0 sovereignty-wise. They could always go to lowsec as well. The concentration of power is caused by sovereignty mechanics not by the fighting. Quote: I have lived in low-sec/no-sec as an individual. In Venal no less. I know its possible, and frankly, not even that hard. I also know it's wholly unattractive to the typical Empire dweller. They won't go, bud. If you try to force them by turning Empire into a ghetto, they'll just bail. It does not bode well for the long term health of everybody's game. Ffs NO ONE will be forced. It just makes them earn less ISK while sitting in hisec. If they want to sit there and effortlessly earn enough ISK to afford anything they want with no risk, then EVE is not the game for them. I've never seen a game become more popular due to being dumbed down.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.15 06:11:00 - [8] From the FAQ page on the official EVE site: Quote: New characters enter the EVE world in high security areas of space, heavily guarded by police ships and sentry guns. Zones with lower security levels are more lucrative in terms of being places to find the highest quality items and opportunities, giving players the incentive to venture further out as they gain skill and experience. The most powerful characters of various professions û merchants, miners, pirates, bounty hunters, etc. û are all able to maximize their profits in the uncontrolled regions where no laws apply, provided they can hold their own against other players who might profit from their deaths.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.15 06:22:00 - [9] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 15/08/2008 06:23:23 I did that to quash the "Let them play the game like they want to, there's nothing wrong with riskless ISK printing in hisec" crowd. I did that so we can cut through the bullshit of people who understand nothing of EVE's core design, and get more towards figuring out a solution. Of course if someone would like to present an argument that lowsec/0.0 is significantly more profitable than hisec missioning then I'd love to hear it, but I'm sick and tired of the WoW attitudes.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.15 18:16:00 - [10] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 15/08/2008 18:16:41 Quote: I disagree it's completely out of whack it's about the same as everythig else. Looking at the figures for mining in 0.0 , ratting in 0.0, lvl 4 missions in hisec they all seem to average (that's average not the best ores, NPCs or Agents/missions) about 20-25 million an hour and, truth be told, none of them are particularly risky. I havn't seen any figures but I would hazard a guess that the highest payouts would be from low sec agents which hardly anybody uses. 0.0 "Safety" has to be earned, hisec does not. By that virtue alone 0.0 methods of ISK-earning should -vastly- outstrip the hisec ones. It's only SAFE if huge groups of people band together, spend a SHITLOAD of time, effort, and ISK into securing the area.

Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:21:00 - [11] Hisec exploration is a viable profession. You can scan out and run hisec sites pretty easily and make a decent profit. It'll take you awhile to make enough ISK for some of the more high-ticket items (Recons, HACs, faction ships, etc) but it's more than enough to sustain yourself. I don't see what's wrong with that level of profit for hisec missions. It works fine for hisec mining/exploration, I don't see why missionrunners should be the exception here. No one is saying that missions should be nigh useless, but right now it's over the top. Joining a lowsec/0.0 corp doesn't require a ridiculous income. For one, if you're in a lowsec/0.0 corp you could rat or mission in their territory and earn all the ISK you want. For two, just because you can't afford to easily replace pimped HACs every day doesn't mean that you can't sustain yourself.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:25:00 - [12] Then why not run missions in lowsec and keep said profit? There are PLENTY of ways to dodge pirates, so no you wont be continuously killed if you're paying attention. The best way is to get some friends/corpmates together and kill any pirates that venture around the area of space you're in, e.g. fight for valuable space. Besides, there is no rule that every time you have to go out you HAVE to be flying a ****ing battleship. If you find that you can't reliably support BS losses, why not try Cruisers/battlecruisers and/or fit t1 mods as opposed to t2?
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:01:00 - [13] Quote: I'd love to; do you have a guide on how I can be outfitted for shield tanking and missile DPS and still not get continuously killed? This thread has a lot of good advice. I haven't lost a ship in lowsec in awhile. While I don't run missions, I run exploration complexes (which are easier to find than missions). Well I suppose I HAVE lost a ship recently if you count my dumbass forgetting how shooting back at campers stops you from jumping through a gate, but that was bad luck and my own stupidity. Quote: Yeah, we tried that once; worked until our first victim's friends showed up. Turns out that people who reap the heightened rewards of lowsec and can afford faction battleships and heavy interdictors generally beat a Ferox, a Caracal, an ewar frigate and a Raven trying to make their way in. Go figure. Okay? You wont win every battle, especially if your opponent is more organized than you. Them flying Hictors/battleships has nothing to do with them living in lowsec. Quote: I don't have the skills to do what I enjoy doing (L4s) in a cruiser, and I don't have the time or patience (or the T2 missile skills required) to do them in a battlecruiser. My role in the gang is to do DPS. Another person absorbs damage. For me at least, my role works best in a battleship, and I very seldom lose my ship to NPC rats. I don't have enough ISK to regularly fund getting killed by pirates, I CERTAINLY don't have the ISK to throw away cruisers and battlecruisers experimenting with fits that work well. And I don't fit T2 mods; I can't afford them. I fit named T1s except in the case of cap modules on my Ferox. Sigh. 1) T2 is cheaper than (Good) named T1 2) You don't use the same damn ship for PVP that you do for NPCing. You shouldn't be losing a missionship often if at all. Quote: Really, though, I don't see what you really have to complain about; you already have L5s exclusive to nullsec and lowsec, and you can make a crap ton more doing those than you can running L4s in highsec. The LP rewards are greater in lowsec, and you get all kinds of extra opportunities like pirate missions, narcotics, and screwing with FW players. If you don't think that lowsec is profitable enough, why not try to buff lowsec rather than ruin the game for those of us who are already just barely getting by in highsec? "Barely getting by" running hisec level 4s? lol... There are people who "Get by" making less than half the profit you do mining. Somehow they manage. I repeat, you don't need to be constantly replacing battleships to be effective. If you buffed lowsec/0.0 a shitload then, while risk/reward would be restored, inflation would be ****ing ridiculous and the expensive stuff that's supposed to be rare and special suddenly wouldn't be so anymore.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.19 03:37:00 - [14] Originally by: Saori Rei No. Take away my only source of income ingame and I simply stop playing. You need ISK to play and it's that simple. Don't ruin that just because you want more vulnerable targets in low sec... pft. So how do miners/hisec explorers get by?
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:23:00 - [15] These "OMFG EVE WILL LOSE SUBS AND DIE" crap is just wrong. 1) People who do nothing but mission all day and play purely for the missions (the minority) will not be affected because they don't really spend ISK on anything, so a decrease in income wont matter. Who knows, ti might encourage them to explore other aspects of the game as well. 2) People who use missions to fund other things will be affected, but they wont /ragequit over it...at least no more than a few. Did pirates all quit EVE when WTZ was introduced? Are all the nano-users going to quit after the nerf? How about the stacking nerf many years ago, did the people who relied on Gankageddons quit? Improving game balance and moving the game closer to its stated design goal will NEVER kill the game. You know what WILL kill the game? Trying to be a WoW-clone in space, because lets face it, EVE's PVE sucks. EVE will simply not succeed if it tries to become more like WoW because WOW has the whole "carebear PVE" thing down. If someone seriously wants that type of game, they will go to WoW because WoW does it better. EvE offers a risky, difficult, PVP game and improving that would only make EVE grow.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.08.30 18:26:00 - [16] Quote: No, I think it would make combat less profitable and less likely to happen. No, it would reduce random go-into-lowsec-with-expensive-battleship-and-blow-some-random-shit-up PVP. It would vastly INCREASE combat among those living in lowsec because the space there would actually be valuable and worth fighting over.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.01 03:38:00 - [17] Quote: Is 100M/day too high a reward for someone who doesn't even leave a station? Trading incurs risk and requires considerable player skill. Missioning has/requires neither.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.01 16:00:00 - [18] You can't balance the game based on cheaters and if that's the only argument then, well, I think CCP's course is clear. If people start buying more ISK, then the GMs will ramp up enforcement and start removing more ISK. It will NOT reduce PVP...at least meaningful PVP. "Fly out into lowsec looking for random fight" PVP would instead be replaced by "Fly around in lowsec and defend your valuable ISK-gathering territory" PVP, which is much, much better.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.01 20:08:00 - [19] Quote: Pirates? Nope, they are mostly interested in blowing others up. Carebears? Nope, they will get blown up once and return to HighSec. Without their percieved ability to "progress" by losing their ISK source or level 4s, many will quit. Alliance PvP alts? Nope, if they were interested in "fighting for their valuable ISK generating territories" they would be running their mains in 0.0. Basically those that are already in lowsec will benefit, everyone else will go do something different. LowSec will still be empty. The reason? If you lose a single ship a week you have lost more trying to run level 4s in LowSec as compared to running level 3s in HighSec. At first people will move out there, but after losing a ship or two they will move back. It is simple math that the reason no one is in LowSec is because for running missions or mining you WILL lose ships and lose them often as a PvE fitted ship will lose to a PvP fitted ship that has NPCs backing it up every time. If you take all the precautions and align to station, jump when local changes, etc then you might as well be running level 1s in empire because you cannot make ISKies while docked or cloaked in a safe spot. No amount of rewards or nerfs will force players into LowSec, you have to make it safer for the SOLO player or they won't move there. And like it or not, most Empire corp players are essentially solo while chattering with their friends. Dumb carebears will get blown up and return to hisec. Smart ones will organize, dodge and fight the pirates. I am of course aware that people would just run level 3s, which is why I am in favor of a blanket hisec mission nerf (full scaling rewards, bounties/loot included, by sec status) so that running 3s to make almost as much ISK would not be an option. You wont lose ships while running a mission unless you're not paying attention. There are too many damn tools at your disposal to stop that from happening, and in my vast experiences with lowsec exploration (EASIER to probe down than in a mission) I have NEVER been caught...even when flying in hisec/lowsec border systems that are usually brimming with pirates compared to the rest of it. I don't give a shit if people are too scared to move out there. I really don't care if one person moves out to lowsec (although a lot would). What I care about is that people who DO go into lowsec are appropriately rewarded and people who sit in the safe, secure zones aren't making huge amounts of easy ISK.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.02 00:36:00 - [20] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 02/09/2008 00:42:23 Quote: Then advocate a method of rewards that doesn't screw over a large portion of the player base and you might actually have a chance of getting it. You aren't advocating making LowSec more valuable, you are advocting nerfing a huge portion of the game. If the problem is an overpowered profession and the majority of the player base use it then THERE IS NO WAY TO FIX IT WITHOUT "Screwing them over". And the only reason missioning is a huge portion of the game is because it's the perfect money maker. Should we move Crokite/bistot and the high-end 10/10 DED plexes to hisec? Why not?

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